Not-so-idle musings
November 14, 2008Erin 15 Comments »I got into an interesting discussion with a girlfriend a few days ago about doctors and health. We were specifically discussing tubal ligations and the restrictions that doctors place around women getting the procedure. I know of one woman in particular (who can out herself if she pleases 
) who has said that she has known she does not want children since she was a teenager, and yet her doctor has refused to perform a tubal ligation for her until she is past the age of 30.
Smacks of paternalism, doesn’t it?
My girlfriend and I were talking about this, and whether doctors should simply perform procedures for women when they wish. After all, if one is considered an adult at the age of 18, does that not mean being responsible for one’s decisions? I’m sure that there would be some women who would get a bit older and wish they had not got the procedure, but how many women are having to pay for birth control, perhaps go through excrutiating pain (as I hear from others’ experiences that inserting an IUD is not fun times at all) and maybe getting pregnant through birth control failing or whatever and choosing to have abortions because a doctor chose to not perform a surgery for them?
Does the fact that some women may change their minds mean that all women have to suffer paternalism at the hands of their doctors? Why is it that women are not given the right to decide for themselves?
I have no facts to back this up, but I bet, I bet that men do not suffer the same kind of paternalistic medicine that women do. I bet if a man decided that he wanted to have a vasectomy, because he had thought carefully and decided that he did not want to have children, that he would not be left hanging for over a decade before doctors trusted him to have made the correct decision for himself.
It seems to go back to the idea that women’s worth is the fact that they can make babies, and to remove that option is seen as such a huge step for a woman to take that we had better make sure they really mean it! We don’t want to jump the gun and then have unhappy, unfulfilled women running around out there! Because we all know that making babies is the only twoo path to being a happy fulfilled woman. /snark
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 1:04 am
I do believe that men face the exact same resistance when they seek a vasectomy. A family member of mine is an adult past 35 with two children and has decided with his wife that they do not want any more children. Yet he had to argue with the Doctor, really to convince his Doctor that he really does indeed want this procedure.
I think that this is a matter of Medical Practitioners seeing people every day who don’t fully comprehend the (in some cases) irreversible operations that they seek. Should persons seeking gender reassignment surgery not be questioned by their Doctor? After all they are adults and fully capable of taking responsibility for their actions.
I am a little curious to know what your reaction may be if your friend had seen a female Doctor and received the same advice.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 5:33 am
To my knowledge, she did see a female doctor. I was using ‘paternalism’ in its philosophical or sociological sense – where those in power take the attitude that they know what is best for those in their power.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 11:17 am
I had asked for a tubal ligation since I was 18 as well and was continually told no, it wasn’t until *after* I had Brandon that they consented.
I’m on the fence with this because it’s not just about your choice to have kids or not, it’s about choosing to have an, for all intents and purposes, irreversible procedure and I believe in the power of people to change as much as I believe in a persons current convictions.
It’s not that much different than getting a tattoo and I firmly oppose underage tattooing for the same reason.
Mind you we are talking about one of the only two drives us humans have hardwired into us right (eating and procreating) so I am not flippantly equating children with body decor…
Still, the questions I was asked such as “what if you get married” and “what if your child dies” *are* questions to take into serious consideration because, as I said, people DO change their minds.
And for that I think it’s worth the few of us having to be hassled for a couple years so that the majority don’t barrel into a decision that they may later regret.
It’s a lot easier to get an abortion than it is to get pregnant in vitro**
**though I wish neither on anyway
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Why would anyone see a Doctor if they didn’t know better? Isn’t that the point?
“Why is it that women are not given the right to decide for themselves?” If we can agree that this happens to males as well as females, I would then argue that perhaps people in their 20′s may not have the life experience to guide their reason discretionally in all matters. People’s attitudes and perceptions change over time, in ways that may be incomprehensible to the individual today. Does liability and medical ethics not require Doctors to do their due diligence?
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
I also know a man who wanted a vasectomy for a very long time, and whose doctor made him wait until past age 30.
And I don’t think it comes out of a society that’s overly paternalistic, rather one that is overly litigious. Medical and Legal advice and actions are up for high, high scrutiny, and a doctor must be firmly convinced that they won’t be sued by someone later on who “changed their mind” or “finally met the right person.”
I’m sure it happens less in Canada, but our proximity to the USA where those kind of cases are successfully prosecuted, makes it a chance I wouldn’t expect any doctor to take.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Psst I had mine done at the age of 25…I had one child..the OBGYN asked me if my husband was okay with it…then he corrected himself and said really it is not up to your husband I appologize…find a doctor that will do them, some just wont based on their own ethics..we have waivers for this sort of stuff.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
It seems that 2/3rds of the 3 confirmed cases above have been men and have been made to wait until they were over 30 years old. Whereas only 1/3rd have been women and they were encouraged to have their tubes tied well before the age of 30!
It seems to go back to the idea that men’s worth is the fact that they can seed babies, and to remove that option is seen as such a huge step for a man to take that we had better make sure they really mean it! We don’t want to jump the gun and then have unhappy, unfulfilled men running around out there! Because we all know that seeding babies is the only twoo path to being a happy fulfilled man.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Here is the oddity of it in my mind..my tubal ligation was covered under my medicare, yet birth control pills are not covered,they pretty much do the same thing as the tubal ligation…prevent pregnancy…hmmm interesting..and FYI reversal of the tubal ligation is not covered under medicare. I cant see this being a doctor afraid of being sued, you fully inform your patient, they sign the consent.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
I cant see this being a doctor afraid of being sued, you fully inform your patient, they sign the consent.
Exactly. I of course approve of doctors explaining procedures, possible outcomes and side effects, etc. They know more than me – I go to my doctor to get an expert opinion. But as Y2 points out, there is no reason why this procedure cannot be fully explained and a waiver signed.
By the way, I have to say that I love men being flippant on feminist issues. That just makes the conversation so much better. And the old ‘men actually have it so much harder than women!’ song did need to be sung. Thanks for stepping up, Tristan.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Well, I am outing myself. (hee, hee)
To be honest, my family doctor was very supportive. She explained the procedure, blah, blah, blah… but it isn’t your family doctor that does the surgery. That’s a GYN.
I was sent to this woman that I didn’t know, that who’d never talked to me before and knew none of my history. She tried to get me to take an IUD, but when I was really specific with her about my request she booked the surgery.
The worst thing that happened was the nurse who was almost hysterical that I “want no BAYBEE?!?”
Men do have a difficult time getting vasectomies. A nurse tech told me that most doctors won’t do the procedure until the guy has “three kids or one or two he’s abandoned”.
For the record, I am not anti-preganancy or anti-childbirth. I am anti-parenting and anti-children in my house, for me personally.
I found litigation case law in the US of women who got tubal ligations and signed waivers only to sue years later because IVF and/or reversal surgery didn’t work and they didn’t really *mean* permanent. One case the woman claimed she didn’t know what “permanent” meant. Three cases were from women who got tubal ligations young and then changed their minds when they were older because they’d been to therapy and didn’t hate children anymore.
People are dumb. We must not underestimate the endless possibilities of this.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
I may have lessened the hard time I got from the GYN. When she demurred I did tell her that if I got pregnant I would kill myself. That’s when she offered me the IUD. When I pushed again, she booked the surgery.
Posted on November 15th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Will you be offended, Lori, if I say that you weren’t actually the person I was referring to? *lol* I had forgotten that you had had one as well, and I wasn’t sure about your experience in terms of how hard you had to push to get the surgery. The fact that you had to threaten suicide to get the procedure is telling in and of itself. Plus, how old were you when you got it done?
I’m not underestimating the dumbness of people. What I am doing is questioning our medical system that caters to the lowest common denominator.
Even if it is more difficult than I suspected for a man to get a vasectomy, I doubt that a male would have to push for ten years to get one done.
And even if this is the case, does it not bother anyone that our reproductive choices are not under our personal control? I find it very uncomfortable that I am not allowed to make this decision for myself because someone else, who quite frankly does not know me intimately except on a physical level, feels that I may change my mind in future.
For the record, I am not seeking a tubal ligation. I’m pretty sure that I’m a member of ‘Team No Babies’ but I have not made the decision irrevocably yet. It’s the philosophical ideas around this issue that interest me.
Posted on November 16th, 2008 at 9:36 am
I was 30.5 when I asked my Vancouver doctor for one the first time. I had no trouble getting the referral to the Gyn from her and she understood my reasons and decisions.
To be honest, I had previously asked for one from other doctors when I lived in Ontario, and I’m kind of glad that they didn’t give me one then. I waffled A LOT throughout my twenties, and if I could’ve found the relationship I wanted help to raise children in, I probably would’ve.
I used to sleep with a man who had a vasectomy when he was 29. He fought for it since he was in college. I think that the standard is that doctor’s won’t consider it until you get to age 30.
Every regulated industry, from public education to the manufacture of socks, caters to the lowest common denominator. There is also a pathological belief that all people want to have children. That is why every paired up heterosexual couple gets Bingo’d.
My sister, who knows I’ve had my tubes tied, still says “Oh wait until you and Joe have kids” whenever I express my puzzlement with children. It’s like it’s a force of nature.
Oh, and I’m not offended.
Posted on November 16th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Erin,
Can you expound a little on why you feel that this is a feminist issue?
Posted on November 16th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I’ve spent a good part of today thinking about this, and the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that this isn’t necessarily a strictly feminist issue but one of keeping the medical system hetero-normative.
Heterosexuality is the norm and it should be promoted and given a privileged status. Women want babies and men want to father them, and anything outside of that cannot be supported by the system.
Or something.